Financial Services Startups Hackathon at CIIE, IIM Ahmedabad


Participated in Day 1 of Financial Services Startups Hackathon. This hackathon was conducted by Centre For Innovation, Incubation & entrepreneurship (CIIE) at IIM, Ahmedabad.

From their website:

Centre for Innovation, Incubation and Entrepreneurship was setup at the Indian Institute of Management Ahmedabad (IIMA) with support from Gujarat Government and Department of Science and Technology (Government of India) to promote innovation and entrepreneurship in India.

Me and fellow ThoughtWorker Shaun Jayaraj  did the Business Modelling session. We used the Business Model Canvas for this session.

It was a long, tiring bit wonderful day. Interacted with founders of around 8 startups and answered their questions. Many were focused on rural markets and served underprivileged. This made the sessions richer!

Did a small session on Product Management too. This was the first time I introduced Product Management Canvas to startups. The response was positive. Though there we quiet some questions around it.

Startup Hiring Tips – The Golden Rule


Take a long time to hire, but if needed let go very fast

Hiring key members of the team is the single most decision a founder makes. So hiring should be done right and if things do not turn out well, let go early. It is best for your startup and the person involved.

Hiring in Startups

Many articles have been written on this. But here are my top 2 suggestions:

More Interview Sessions / Candidate Is Good

Make sure that the candidate is interviewed by as many people in your startup and possibly outsiders whom you trust. Make sure this group is diverse in their function and experience.

360 Degree Interview Is Good

If the candidate is coming at senior position and will lead a team that is already part of the startup journey, a 360 degree interview is essential.

“People are good. It is the matching, that can be good or bad.”  – My Matchup Rule

If your existing team does not feel the candidate will help them leap forward and higher, you may end ultimately up losing them. The 360 degree feedback will help you catch such issues before the candidate is hired.

Letting Go in Startups

Sometime we do make mistakes and end up with a wrong person-role match. Remember my match up rule:

“People are good. It is the matching, that can be good or bad.”

‘I Can Fix’ This Is Bad

If startups end up in situation of a wrong hire, I have seen smart leader make same key mistake: they think they can fix it. This causes these issues:

  1. Discontent among performers that you are paying too much attention to a non-performer,
  2. Discontent among those affected that you care more about a wrong hire than those who are delivering, and
  3. Sense of personal failure in the hire that inspite of all the support, he/she can not deliver.

There is no point fighting a battle in which there will be no winners and your startup will lose most.

‘Let Me Help You Move On’ Is Good

Help the wrong hire find a better fit. This will ensure you:

  1. Have not burnt bridges with a smart person,
  2. You will have strong relationship that you can use in a future hire where there is a better match, and
  3. Your existing team will feel inspired that you do not abandoned someone.


Photo courtesy KariHak via Creative Commons


Startup As A Lifestyle


I rarely attend startup events these days.

I used to attend them few years back when I was just starting up. Then I started seeing some patterns that worried me and made me avoid the trappings of what I call now as ‘Startup As A Lifestyle’.

Same Set of People at All Events

First thing I noticed was I was running into same set of founders, VC, Angels, etc. Only people who were new and busy used to ones who saw startups as their customers. Rest just chatted away while munching on the snacks. This gets tagged as networking. I think this is just socializing.

Not much wrong here, but it soon stuck me: You attended them one, you attended them all.

Saved myself bunch of time. Unless you are sure there is a new set of people attending, feel free to skip.

Keeping Up

Who got funded. Who got acquired by whom. Who moved where. Comparing anecdotes of US days or upcoming US trip. Which startup is X of Y for Z. Which founder is having a meltdown. Name dropping.

There are so many meta conversations that it will boggle you. I have seen some founders keep up in news so that they are not caught off-guard in such conversation and appear not to be in-touch.

Gets worse if you do not enjoy being updated on all masala regarding everyone in Bangalore-SFO split lives.

Unless you personally love chatting everything up, avoid such events. Saved myself bunch of time.

Being Founder is Sexy

This is a good news and really positive sign for future of entrepreneurship. But is mots dangerous lure of  ‘Startup As A Lifestyle’.

I have come across many young founders who do not seem to be going anywhere. They love going to pitches, pivoting, love passing on their cards, love talking about others, love talking how much funds others raised, love the scheduling freedom startup offers, love the dress code freedom startup offers and in general no hurry to get anywhere. Being a founder seems to be the reward enough.

Avoid being such a person.


Any social activity that does not help your product building and revenue generating prospects must be examined carefully and you should ask yourself repeatedly if investing time in it is useful or not.

Startups are not to enable your lifestyle. Your lifestyle should be to enable your startup.


Cover photo courtesy Kevin Makice, via Creative Commons license 2.0

Failing Since 2012 – Startup Lessons


Previously on ‘Failing Since 2012’  E01E02E03E04, E05, Dinker Charak, Founder of Roo Kids app, talked about his startup journey. In this last post of the series, he summarizes the lessons learnt. Now read on …

I always start by pointing out it is failing and not failed! No one has given up. The journey is still on.

But, why failing? I believe that a startup is failing / dying everyday. The day that stops, you have become a regular business. Even if you are profitable, you are still failing as you should be taking leaps and risks that can bring you down to ground. That is how I define a startup.

To conclude the series, it makes sense to share my take on startups and lessons learnt. So here we go:

1. Co-Founders

If you can’t find a right co-founder, go solo! Do not get a co-founder because everyone says so.

I decided to go solo. Hence I am in good position to give advice on co-founders! You know, at times the bystander has more clue than the people in middle of a mess.

a. Be Prepared For Failure

Discuss failure and eminent closure. Discuss how will you disband the startup.

b. Be Prepared For Success

Nothing impedes like success. When that first big deal comes in. When that large chunk of cash comes in. When the pictures show up in the newspapers. When that panel guest invitations comes in. Be prepared for that. Who will do what and how will you share the limelight.

Definitely, be clear how will that chunk of investor cash be used.

I know you will have a good plan that you must have discussed with investors against which they invested in you. But plans seldom survive contact with reality. So discuss how changes in plans will be handled.

c. Be Prepared for Uneventfulness

OK, I don’t even know if that is a real word. Still …

90% of your days will be uneventful. You will do what you were doing the day before. Many days you will have no clue what to do next.

This is the biggest secret ever kept. Not all days are full of action and results and decisions and power meeting and OK-GO music running as soundtrack to your life.

Most days are spent doing the same stuff and at times being adrift and clueless on how to make the next big thing happen. You will sit on your desk with your head in your hands, pulling your hair and wondering what should you do to get things to work!

Be ready to see each others in this pose and be seen in this pose.

 2. Fund Raising

Unless you have reverse engineered the funding patterns and built a startup that has all elements investors are looking for, funding is going to be a nightmare.

This is what I mean by reverse engineering the Series A funding patterns: If you are in India, as per current gossip, pick a product that is doing good in US, be young male, gather few IIT grads and go pitch! Or, pick an ecommerce idea, show how you can get millions of rupees flow through your system (even if 80% of that will come from investors via Discounted Cash Flow), be young male, gather a few IIT grads and go pitch!

But I digress.

a. Always Have Investors

Fine, you can bootstrap. Fine, you can generate revenue. Fine, you can do it with your own money. Still!

Nothing challenges your optimism than to sit in front of someone and get her or him to see your vision. You are the entrepreneur. You are the ones with dreams, energy and will to dent the universe. But if you can’t convince even one person to buy in, something is not right.

You need to get an investor to make sure you know that you are a seer and not delusional.

b. Find a Entrepreneur-Investor

All my early investors were entrepreneurs themselves. They had seen failures / tough days and have achieved big success.

So every once in a while I get a, “I hear you! Keep going. It’s a marathon, not a sprint.”

Nothing strengthens your core than someone who has followed the pagdandi and found success.

Also there is one more thing: It has to be their own money they are investing. They will decide to invest in you based on the same gut feeling and analytics that made them successful in first place. This is a massive up vote!

c. Say No to Institutional Money

Here is how I think VCs work. They take bunch of money from rich people and organization and promise them some x return in n time. Say 10x return in 7 years. Along the way they assure that their money will make lives of poor, middle class, diseased, etc. better.

The only (and big) difference between someone who is investing her / his own money and someone else’s money is the flexibility on time!

Never hesitate to take money from an entrepreneur. Think a lot before taking it from a VC during early days. Go to a VC when you are sure you can get them the returns on their investment in a predictable span of time.

3. Conserve Cash

Cash in hand is the only friend you have. Conserve it. Instead of paying someone in cash, see if you can pay back in kind. Pay closer to due dates. Don’t spend on something you did not need critically last week / yesterday. Try trials version before buying full product. Use open source or free versions.

4. Get a Life

If your startup is the only thing going for you, here is what you need to do: get a life!

Very soon you will run out of money or ideas or friends or energy or all of these in one go. What will you turn to then? How will you get your groove back?

Nothing invigorates me like a short trip to a nature rich destination. You should find something similar.

5. Pivot, Experiment, Concede, Change

Very rarely does a successful startup get everything right from the very beginning. So be ready to pivot around one successful aspect of your startup, experiment, concede when you are wrong and be ready to change.

Success is directly proportional to your elasticity and plasticity.

6. Lead from Front

Be a leader of your team. They will turn to you for vision, direction, ideas, etc. Always be few steps ahead of them. And that means you have to work harder than anyone else in the team.

Always be full of ideas for them to try out. Always be ready to focus on what next, rather than failure. Don’t waste time blaming them and spend time nudging them into all new directions.

7. Hiring & Firing

Hire people better and smarter than you. Give them a purpose and direction, be transparent how they will be judged and then get out of their way!

And if you hire a person who is not right for the task, fire early. No point letting them continue. They will not have good time working with you, others working with them will not have good time and you will burn cash!

Guide them in finding a job that suits them best and let go.

Do not turn a misfit employee into your favorite project. Do not believe you can make it work somehow, however smart or great a people person you are.

Other hard working & performing employees will feel demotivated when they see an under-performer getting same benefits. The under-performer will feel bad that inspite of being smart and hardworking your startup is unable to give the role she or he can excel in.

It is not going to work and all involved will suffer.

8. Personality

Forget aura, charisma, reality-distortion field, etc. Develop a sense of humor (the self-deprecating kind is best), learn to praise others and be patient when dealing with people.


In conclusion of this series: It has been a wonderful journey, met wonderful people and learn a lot about myself.

My aim is to treat kids more than just a school going, IQ improving and exam passing bots. They are individuals who have a purpose and personality of their own and deserve the best of new technology and innovations. Roo Kid is one of the ways I am working on this aim.

I hope to succeed in building a neat product and taking it to right audience. Along the way I will have fun, meet more wonderful people, make difference in lives and maybe make money!

Wish me luck! 🙂

You can read this and other episodes (E01, E02, E03, E04, E05, Startup Lessons) on LinkedIn. Or, you can read this and other released episodes as a single post here

Failing Since 2012 – S01E05


Previously on ‘Failing Since 2012’ S01 E01E02E03 & E04, Dinker Charak, Founder of Roo Kids app, talked about how his startup ended up creating & supporting 23 products, purged some products to bring the count to 7 and realized even 7 was a lot. Now read on …

Failing. Not failed!

The Second Purge (Early 2015)

7 products. Each a whole start-up in itself. Small team. Limited resources. 

This meant only one thing: Go all in on one of these, drop rest and not to get distracted by any more spin-off & focus.

Finding Our Sunday Passion

So which product should we choose from 7? One we would love to work on even on a Sunday and whose growth will give us a reason to celebrate on weekends?

We went back to our earlier method that I had described in Episode 3.

The Analysis

We dropped the criteria for which all 7 were doing well. We chose following 7 factors to score each product. One with maximum score would win!

1. Virality: We defined virality as growth driven by a user where they had to bring other users to the product / platform for it to be of use. Eg: If I download Skype to chat with friends, I have to ensure that those friends also download Skype, register and add me as friend so we can chat. And those new users would bring in others.

2. SEO: Can the product benefit from SEO and how easy will it be to search-engine optimize it.

3. Clear Pain Point: Does this product solve a very obvious pain point? A yes is preferable.

4. Monetizability: How easy is to monetize this product using existing models like ads, subscription, etc.

5. Uniqueness: Do we stand out among other offerings in Kid’s app market? While first mover advantage was not something we sought, some degree of uniqueness is was preferred.

6. Global Market: We wanted to reach out to global markets. As we are based in India, it is a market of interest for us. Indians prefer to be on Global platforms. A quick look at top apps in any B2C (non-ecommerce) category quickly confirms this. So if we did well globally, we would automatically do well in India.

7. No User-Customer Conflict: I have talked about User-Customer conflict inEpisode 1. This conflict is very evident in Kids’ products. The users are the kids and the customers are the parents. It is a tight rope to walk while balancing interests and ROI for both.

Below is the result of the analysis:


So, Roo Kids it was!

Roo Kids

The first thing we had to decide was which device to target first. We had learnt the lesson to not go all out till we get sufficient feedback from the market.

Our studies showed that while Phones were personal devices, the iPad gets passed around in the home most. It was replacing the Home PC as the default family device. So we targeted it first.

Once iPad version was out, we were able to reuse the code to add iPhone layout and release an iPhone/iPod version.

Android took time to start. We were seeing enough traction, usage and feedback from iOS versions. But as soon as things stablized, we released an Android version.

We got lot of requests to add Kindle Fire support. Many parents had bought it and the device had a strong reputation for being child-safe. With some changes (In-app purchase, notification, gathering device token, etc), we reused the Android code and released the Kindle version.

How’s Roo Kids Doing?

The app has been out for enough time for us to know if our analysis was right. Is it what the analysis promised it to be? Let’s see:

This includes messages sent to another user, message sent to canned-response chatbots like Echo, Puzzle, Science for Ages 8/9, stickers, images and doodles.

Stat commonly used to measure active users on Social Networks and Messaging apps. Number of unique users who have used the app at least once in a month.

These stats look very encouraging. The analysis was right and it was a good call to go all-in on Roo Kids.

Encouraged by user response, we are now expanding Roo Kids products to include some cool features and become default safe social for kids.

We are also fundraising and welcome all interest / queries from investors.

The next article will be a season finale of sorts where I will discuss lessons learnt that other startup (in general) and startups for kids (in particular) will hopefully find useful.


Originally posted on LinkedIn (E01, E02, E03, E04, E05, Startup Lessons) and Roo Kids App blog as a single post here

Failing Since 2012 – S01E04


Previously on ‘Failing Since 2012’ S01 E01E02 & E03, Dinker Charak, Founder of Roo Kids app, talked about how the startup ended up creating & supporting 23 products and had to purge some products to bring the count to 7. Now read on …

Failing. Not failed!

Keeping At It (Rest of 2014)

23 products in 2 years by a team of 4 is crazy. We had to do it to explore the landscape. Now that we learned what we had learned, we purged bunch of products to focus on just 7 of them. We worked on all 7 of them for almost all of 2014. These products were:


For a Martial Arts movie buff, nothing is more exciting than picking a name that ends in Fu! Hence, ContestFu.

We took all the contests from and rebranded as We continued to run online contests under the new brand where we gave two prizes: 1/ the most voted, and 2/ the best entry picked by staff.

To vote, one had to Like, Tweet or Register + Up Vote the entry. This ensured growth. The entrants were going around asking people to visit and vote for them.

Initially we gave iPod Shuffle as prize. But as we conducted more contests, we had to bring down the value of the prize.

The product was ready! We wanted to monetize it now. A new person joined the team with just one mission: Get schools to use ContestFu to organize art contests. We would charge schools, charge parents or get a sponsor.

We were quite successful!

Small schools were extremely open to the idea. Some schools allowed us to charge $1.00 (INR 50) per student. Some schools paid for the students and some schools asked us to feel free to get a sponsor.

We even conducted art contest in a big chain school. They had 108 branches and around 3,500 students participated in the contest. It was a wonderful time!

But we had tough time with well-know schools and international schools. They were our hope for larger revenues. Things did not go as expected.

Turns out all such mega-brand schools have Biz Dev guys. Their job is to help schools get extra revenues. So whenever we pitched Art Contests to such schools, we used to get asked how much we could pay the school as fee. Their logic was that the school was giving us access to kids of HNIs (High Networth Individuals) and foreigners. This certainly was of some worth to us as part of our investor pitch.

This dashed our hopes of making money from such schools by organizing contests for them.

Other thing with selling to schools is that each sales cycle is exactly same as selling to the school before. Typically, once you sell to one client, subsequent sales cycle is small as you have brand reputation, case studies of benefit to buyer, etc. But in case of school, we had to start from scratch with each new school we approached.

At times mentioning that another school had used us for Art contest was actually a detriment.

While we got very encouraging response from small and medium sized schools, we just did not have bandwidth to target them. The return per school was low and we need more feet on ground to cover more schools. This meant a whole different kind of org than what we wanted to be.


This was a WordPress based site built on a commercially available theme. We wanted to keep the dev time minimum and focus all available time on producing content.

We posted ‘Top 10’ kind of articles a lot. These were very popular and got lot of traffic from Google and other search engines. Some of these articles are still online:

Top 5 Ways To Make Your Parents Feel Special
Top 10 Indian (Bollywood) Movies For Kids
Top 5 Interesting Things To Do With Kids On A Rainy Day
Top 10 Largest Circulated Education Magazines In India
5 Interesting Reason Why Kids Love Chocolate
10 Coolest and Beautiful Carnivorous Plants

We also wrote review of kids apps. Initially we did it for free. But soon the number of requests overran us. We started charging for review. People would pay us via Paypal for write review.

We reviewed only those apps that were for kids or parents. This meant the overall quality of the apps we review was high. We gave an app score between 1-5 based on three criteria:

Learn, Fun and User Experience.

We made good money from this. App developers found us and we did not have to go out hunting for business. We had very good SEO and Google Page Rank and Alexa Page rank. It was a wonderful time!

But, ads and review fees cannot sustain a whole company. The scale of revenue growth was also not there. Also, we were not natural content creators. This meant a whole different kind of org than what we wanted to be.


Our flagship website was now a gaming site. We had around 700+ odd games on it. We had games for various categories, for various age groups, for different platforms, sorted by popularity, sorted by recently uploaded, sorted by last played, etc.

We saw amazing growth in page views. In fact, founder of another startup told me that he was talking to his kid sister and she told him that she loved playing kiddie games on this site called He knew me well and was quite excited for me. It was a wonderful time!

But, we had tough time getting ads for this site on regular basis. We kept getting rejected even by Google Ads. Kids games get commoditized very fast. Once a game is popular, multiple versions show up. We were not too keen on being game designers either. Just gathering games on our platform to be a SEO magnet wasn’t exciting either. This meant a whole different kind of org than what we wanted to be.

Kill My Time

This iOS app came from a web app & a Facebook app of same name and another web app called My GK Fun.

This product did not get purged and made it to final 7 as it required almost zero-maintenance as an iOS app. There were around 700 or so questions. The UI was good and engagement was high.

It was a paid app. So it just hung around in App Store and once in a while someone would buy it. It was revenue earned from just one time investment. Users did download it and we made some $ from it.

My Sketch Roo

Our ‘kids love sketching’ idea now lived in two forms: 1/ and 2/My Sketch Roo iOS app.

My Sketch Roo had a very simple interface. When other sketching apps on iOS were trying to be super-sophisticated and feature rich, we chose to be simple. We did not let sophistications or features come in-between kids and their sketches.

We took the app to next level by adding coloring books. Kids could download these books and color them. This was both fun and educational. Our English alphabet based coloring books were very popular.

We see regular downloads and some of the coloring books are in-app purchase. However, this is just another app. Not something that will take us, as a startup, to another level. Though better positioned than ‘Kill My Time’ but still not something we could peg our future on.

Roo Kids

Roo Kids is a safe & fun instant messaging app for kids with minimum yet critical parental controls.

All though our experiments, our original idea that kids need a safe social alternative did not wither away. We kept thinking about it. Out of all the learning, came Roo Kids.

The thing with Facebook and GMail like product was that lots of data gets retained on the server. That was a big safety risk. Whatapp was extremely popular. So we decided to give Instant Messaging a try. Once a message is delivered, it is removed from our servers.

VCs love X for Y analogies. So, we got described as ‘Whatsapp for Kids’ and at times ‘Whatsapp for Kids with Safety’.

We knew parents wanted kids to explore, learn and master the digital world. But, talking to them we realized there were 2 very critical concerns the parents had:

  1. Kids talking to strangers, and
  2. Kids getting distracted during homework time or sleep time.

We took on these two concerns head-on. The key features of Roo Kids that addressed these concerns were:

  1. Parents get to review and disapprove anyone in their kid’s Contact list. Thus no stranger or unwanted person could sneak in,
  2. Kids can block any user or message with immediate effect, and
  3. Parents can set curfew time slots during which the live chat will not work.

The app was targeted towards kids of ages 6-12 years and to be used under parental supervision. We build iPhoneiPad and Android versions.

We believe that it is good for kids to experience a restricted app such as Roo Kids before moving into social networking sites, which provide less safety.

Finally we had a product-market fit that we wanted to keep working on and could bet our future on!

War of Fascinating Galaxies

If a kid knows about Princess Apsa, Prince Kowal, the Sombrero Galaxy or the Hoag’s Object, they have definitely played with the WarOFGa Trading cards.

We started with 2 sets of 19 cards each for $1.00 (INR 50). One had a pink back and one a blue back. One of those ‘for boys’ and ‘for girls’ things. The content was all same and just the color was different. Interestingly, the pink sets sold more across genders.

We then sold packs of 32 cards for $1.50 (INR 75). These continued to sell very well at city fairs and other places. It was a wonderful time!

But like before, we just could not get them to sell online. We did not want to develop distribution channels like other offline product either. This meant a whole different kind of org than what we wanted to be.

So all of 2014 we did well with most of our 7 products and were making small revenues from them. We had also learnt a bunch of new lessons in 2014. Turned out we were still stretched thin. It was time to rethink what we should focus on. Maybe another purge?


Originally posted on LinkedIn (E01, E02, E03, E04, E05, Startup Lessons) and Roo Kids App blog as a single post here

Failing Since 2012 – S01E03


Previously on ‘Failing Since 2012’ S01 E01 & E02, Dinker Charak, Founder of Roo Kids app, talked about the first two years of the startup. Now read on …

Failing. Not failed!

The First Purge (Early 2014)


Our first one and a half year journey was full of experiments, twists, turns, pivots and blind chase. This resulted in 23 products. Each a start-up idea in itself.

It was clear that we could not do it all and had to drop one that were digressions, had not future or just could not be maintained by our small team.

Team Size

One thing that I have not talked about is our team size. Mostly by intent and at times by co-incidence, the team size has always been 4 and that includes me. When one left, another joined in and the team size remained same.

It was quite a feat for a team to 4 to create 23 products in 1.5 years. But we had to drop some if this small team had to maintain products and keep the quality high.

Purge Begins

We listed out all the products and variants. Then we assigned them a score based on following factors:

1. Virality: We defined virality as growth driven by a user where they had to bring other users to the product / platform for it to be of use. Eg: If I download Skype to chat with friends, I have to ensure that those friends also download Skype, register, add me as friend so we can chat. And those new users would bring in others.

2. SEO: Can the product benefit from SEO and how easy will it be to SEO optimize it.

3. Busy-Parent Proof: Does this product require lot of parent’s time? Or, will it still be useful with minimal parental intervention. The less time it required, the better.

4. Ease of Adoption: Does this product require a lot of set up and users really have to jump though lots of hoops before it can be used?

5. Clear Pain Point: Does this product solve a very obvious pain point? A yes is preferable.

6. Engagement: How engaging is the product.

7. Monetizability: How easy is to monetize this product using existing models like ads, subscription, etc.

8. Low Maintenance: Does the product need lots of maintenance? Does the underlying platform update often and product may need regular work to stay compatible (very much an issue in app)? Low maintenance is always good.

9. Low 3rd Party Dependency: Eg: Facebook Apps depend a lot on Facebook’s policies and these keep changing. It may lead to rework or even at times total nixing of the product.

10. Copy Proof: How easy is for any random Tom, Dick or Harish to create a copycat?

This is what the analysis looked like:


Based on these 10 factors, we narrowed down to a smaller list of products we will work on.

We then grouped similar ones and created a more focused set of products we will work on.

Rest everything was purged. Deleted and taken offline. This was not that easy. We had worked a lot on these products and naturally were emotionally attached to these products. These were like our babies and it almost felt like we were harming our own babies. But it had to be done.


We now came down to just 7 products. And rest of the year was focused on these seven products: – Art, Sketching, Sketching Contests (as in we dig parenting) –  Articles Targeting Parents and Kids app reviews
Roo Kids – Instant Messaging App
Kill My Time – A quiz app – Games for Kids
Warofga – War of Galaxies Trading Cards
My Sketch Roo – Sketching iOS app


Originally posted on LinkedIn (E01, E02, E03, E04, E05, Startup Lessons) and Roo Kids App blog as a single post here